How to keep razor flat on hone?

I've tried honing a few of my razors. I've tried laying all 10 or so of them on the hone and none of them lay flat. I really don't think that this is an issue with them being warped since it's always the exact same amount of the toe that's staying lifted up. This even happens on my NOS wapis.
The only way I can get the razor to lay flat is by putting a lot more pressure than I think I should be using, especially when finishing the blade. I've noticed that because of this slightly lifted toe, the bevel near the toe is often thinner than the bevel near the heel when I look at it under a microscope.
My hones are lapped flat too, so I don't think that's the issue.

I hold the blade mostly with my index and thumb on the parts of the tang where many razors have jimps (so the part of the tang that leads to the spine and edge as opposed to the part where there is writing). I gently rest my other fingers on the razor (middle is on tang and scales, rest are on scales).
Any tips? I don't get why this is happening.

I do a marker test, putting waterproof black marker on the edge, and seeing if a couple of round trips removes it. If not removed with a normal stroke a heel leading 45 degree angle or a rolling x .... or a modified rolling x . Whatever keeps the edge on the hone while the spine parallel to it also remains on the hone. The marker tells me what works.

Out of curiosity, where are you placing the razors to determine their flatness? Is it across a wide hone, or are you doing it lengthwise, or... ?

Very few razors will be truly flat acroos the hone. A marker test is essential to disovering how the edge is lying on the stone. Once this is done, you will have a good idea of what stroke movements are necessary for the razor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by northpaw

Out of curiosity, where are you placing the razors to determine their flatness? Is it across a wide hone, or are you doing it lengthwise, or... ?

---

I've placed them on a 6x2 coticule, 10x1.5 escher and 8x3 naniwa lenght and widthwise. I have to really press down to make the razors lie flat.

So after I do the marker test, could you guys direct me to any resource for info on what honing techniques to apply? Like what rolling x is etc...Thanks

The rolling X is an X pattern stroke where you start with the razor rocked so that the heal makes contact with the hone and then roll the razor across the length of it's edge so that when you end your stroke, the toe is in contact with the hone. You need to slowly lift the scales of the razor while maintaining even, light pressure during your stroke to do this. It takes some practice to get it down, because you need to maintain light pressure, try to have each "section" of the edge in contact with the hone for the same amount of time, and keep the spine and edge on the hone. But, once you can do this stroke, you should be able to hone just about any razor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by heirkb

I've placed them on a 6x2 coticule, 10x1.5 escher and 8x3 naniwa lenght and widthwise. I have to really press down to make the razors lie flat.

So after I do the marker test, could you guys direct me to any resource for info on what honing techniques to apply? Like what rolling x is etc...Thanks

---

Well you've certainly got some good hones. Here is the SRP Wiki honing section with tutorials on the rolling x and other valuable info. Check it out. :tu

You may want to consider a narrow hone, just a suggestion.
I find it works well with slightly warped spines also - 1 1/2" wide.
:)

In my opinion, when learning to do a rolling X, a narrow hone is like training wheels. It forces you to roll in order to keep the razor on the hone at all. But it's not actually any easier to do a rolling X on a narrrow hone than it is on a wider one. For warps, it is indeed better.

Thank you for all the great tips everyone! It's back to the hones for me.

check second video at 1,49 min . gl
http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...n-video-2.html

I have a slightly different issue that may be related. I've been honing the blade and the bevel is pretty even everywhere except one tiny 3/8" length area. It's right before the actual toe bevel, cause the toe bevel is even with the rest of the razor. I've been trying to even this spot out and no matter what I do (tape around it, hone only that spot with light or heavy pressure directly on that part of the spine), it just will not even out with the rest of the razor.
I'm wondering what I can do to fix this problem.
Thanks in advance

If that spot is getting sharp and there is no frown, than the amount of hone wear does not matter. Do you have pictures?

In order to even out a razor as you describe (if I am understanding you correctly) you would have to drastically reduce the spine/edge relationship and would ruin the razor IMO. This is the reason for the rolling x . You avoid wearing the spine and you sharpen the area that won't lay flat with the rest of the blade.

The spine isn't the issue with this one since I taped the spine. What I meant was that a tiny part of the bevel is smaller than the entire rest of the bevel. It doesn't feel any less sharp when I test it though, so maybe it's not a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by heirkb

The spine isn't the issue with this one since I taped the spine. What I meant was that a tiny part of the bevel is smaller than the entire rest of the bevel. It doesn't feel any less sharp when I test it though, so maybe it's not a problem.

---

That is not a problem at all IME. :shrug:

I've found if you want to take the guess work out of honing using magnification can tell you if the jobs getting done, typically x 100 IMHO.
edge bevel and spine geometry/ relationship can be critical especially on the less hollow grinds. Just because a bevel is uneven does not neccessarily mean it's not there.
I have had occassion to deliberatley flatten a spine (tape the edge) that was so warped tons of circles couldn't make things parallel, of course you do need the meat on the spine to decide if the trade off is worth it.
The spine may be straight, the grind may be at a slight angle to it in this area, although straight.
I don't know if any of this makes any sense, send it to an SRP honemiester for evaluation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by heirkb

I've placed them on a 6x2 coticule, 10x1.5 escher and 8x3 naniwa lenght and widthwise. I have to really press down to make the razors lie flat.

So after I do the marker test, could you guys direct me to any resource for info on what honing techniques to apply? Like what rolling x is etc...Thanks

---

Pressure is almost always the wrong solution.

Try this to start on a flat wide hone.

Lay the blade as flat as it wants to be balanced on your finger
with no pressure give it one up and down stroke pair.

then lay the blade as flat as it wants to be balanced on your finger
but this time lift about a millimeter and give it an up/down stroke.

then lay the blade as flat as it wants to be balanced on your finger
and this last time let the balance point sage about one millimeter
and give it a stroke pair.

The idea is to learn to feel the toe, middle and heal of the blade on the
hone.

Lastly integrate all three starting with the balance that places the
heal of the razor on the hone first, then and about 1/3 of the way
across the hone adjust so the razor is equally balanced. Finally
lift that last little bit so the front of the razor touches the hone
at the end of the stroke. You can watch the water wave in front
of the razor wash from heal to toe as you do this. This will happen
naturally on a narrow hone with an X stroke.

Long term begin your honing session with ten remedial stroke pairs
on a flat wide hone with a balanced hold of the blade so in 20 or 40
sessions (about a year) the razor feels flat.

Since the goal is shaving (not flatness) this has the potential
of keeping the blade both sharp and flat.

With a light touch as long as the spine stays in contact with the hone
the bevel should stay correct.

I agree, just gotta do it though and get a feel, not to much thought.
Same applies for rolling X, practice makes perfect.
:beer2:

It's hard to say precisely but I think you'd want to bring lifting pressure with the pinkie and ring finger from underneath to the down-side scale to "lift" (not to actually lift but to direct the pressure the toe. Additionally I use my fore finger and thumb to subtly direct the stroke to the edge

If the toe and other sections are pushing water it doesn't really matter how the bevels, or sections compare in width so long as they make shave edge quality.

I showed up here with that misconception that the razor should or could be corrected with hone grinding. Errors from poor honing may be fixed, but those from smith and cutler cannot be, without resorting to their means.

Instead you follow their work with your hone. With a much limited selection I have never had a razor that required more than directed rolling pressure- no actual elevating

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kevint

It's hard to say precisely but I think you'd want to bring lifting pressure with the pinkie and ring finger from underneath to the down-side scale to "lift" (not to actually lift but to direct the pressure the toe. Additionally I use my fore finger and thumb to subtly direct the stroke to the edge

If the toe and other sections are pushing water it doesn't really matter how the bevels, or sections compare in width so long as they make shave edge quality.

I showed up here with that misconception that the razor should or could be corrected with hone grinding. Errors from poor honing may be fixed, but those from smith and cutler cannot be, without resorting to their means.

Instead you follow their work with your hone. With a much limited selection I have never had a razor that required more than directed rolling pressure- no actual elevating

---

+ 1 on the above.